It’s been eight months since the winners of Content is Queen’s 2022 Micro-Grants for Podcasters Programme were announced, and we are starting to hear the fruits of that scheme. The first sneak-listen was given to the audience of the Micro Grant session at the London Podcast Festival session, but now one of those stories is available to the public.

‘Dead Ends’ by Talia Augustidis was broadcast last night as part of the new series of the BBC’s Lights Out audio documentary. In the episode, Talia offers a personal reflection on how we choose to remember someone, in this case her mother. With a starting point of home videos and crime scene photographs, the episode is about as personal as it gets. In fact, one of the teaser clips features Talia interviewing her father after developing a video of her mum that turned out to be a homemade sex-tape.

I was intrigued to learn more about how Talia navigated the line between emotion, embarrassment and audio production in such a unique piece.

This came out of the Content Is Queen micro grant – what do you think it was about your application that stuck out?

I think first of all the power of the story: trying to discover my Mum from these insufficient fragments. Then also the concept, I pitched to them a version where it appears in an online exhibition in a choose-your-own-adventure style way, which will come out next year. And finally the access, I already had all of this tape from years of recording.

How important was it for you to have this kind of development space?

Hugely important. It’s such a personal piece that I really needed a lot of time and space to leave it and come back, which the micro-grant allowed me, while also pushing me to actually go into the tapes and sift through them. It was really helpful too because I have a full-time job so I could only really work on it in the evenings and weekends, so I don’t think I would have been able to make it for this Lights Out series without the ideas I developed during the micro-grant process.

Why was audio the right medium for this project?

Ultimately it is a story about “images”: home videos, a sex tape, crime scene photographs and memories. And it’s about me not being able to access those images, for a variety of different reasons. So audio is an interesting medium to choose, because it allows for privacy for me and my family while also replicating the feeling of not being able to access the images we are discussing.

Did you take inspiration from any podcasts in particular before you started?

Not consciously. I tried as best I could to work from the tape first, that’s why each chapter is in a different style. But of course unconsciously I am constantly picking up on influences and inspiration. That being said, I am always inspired by the work of Nanna Hauge Kristensen. I think she creates the most beautiful, human, intimate audio of anyone I’ve ever heard, which I try to channel in certain moments of this piece.

As the Producer you obviously had to watch the videos and then speak to your dad about it. How much did you have to re-listen to that interview when producing the episode? And did your emotions and reactions change with re-listens?

I did that particular interview (the one in the audiogram) with my Dad in 2021, and I only listened to it a few months ago for the first time when editing it. I sort of shut it out for a long time I guess. Then I listened once all the way through and just tried to really listen with my body for the part that made me feel things, including discomfort, and those are the parts that stayed in. Of course I had to listen many more times when refining and cutting down, which usually makes me a bit numb to the emotions of the tape, but with that section it always made me laugh and cringe like it did the first time actually. I guess talking to your Dad about your dead mum’s sex tape is never going to feel normal and comfortable, even on the 100th listen.

At some stage you must have had to bring in new listeners to help you produce – and then hand over to the public to listen – how did you know the right time to do that and how does that feel now?

This is where I really want to give a huge shout out to El and Alan from Falling Tree. I found it really hard at the beginning to send drafts of the pieces. It’s such an immensely personal piece, and sharing it with the public feels like sharing a little part of yourself with the world, but sharing first drafts is like an open wound. And when the pitch was accepted for Lights Out I was so relieved to be working with Falling Tree on it, because I trust them. It really taught me the power of having a good editor, not even just for feedback, but even just knowing that you have someone sensitive that you trust allowed me to really push and finish the project.

Do you have any advice for budding producers?

On the topic of Dead Ends, I would say be really gentle with yourself when making personal pieces. If it’s your first time, I wouldn’t recommend making something with hard deadlines. Give yourself time and space to walk away and come back, without the pressure of disappointing anyone external. The first time I made a personal piece was at university (actually it was my first ever piece, The Sound Collector), dredging up the past became really overwhelming and I had to take a few months away from it and come back when I was ready. So be kind to yourself, check in, and don’t put yourself in a situation where taking space isn’t possible.

Dead Ends wouldn’t exist without two years of recording, one year of space, six months of development time from Content is Queen and a couple months of final edits.

Anything else you’d like readers to know?

I pitched a version of this story to the BBC twice — once to Radio 3 and once to Radio 4 — and it was rejected both times. So I want to say thank you to Content is Queen for taking a chance on it, and for Falling Tree for not giving up on it and putting it in their Lights Out series, which features audio documentaries that do something a little different, and take a closer look at news stories. This project has been so immensely cathartic and I’m really glad it found such a lovely home in such good company.

Listen to Lights Out on BBC Sounds, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and other popular podcast apps >>

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POD BIBLE: Can you give us a little bit of an insight to the National Trust podcast?

SEAN: I like to say it’s the podcast that immerses you in art, history and adventure. And it really does all the things that you would get if you came to a National Trust property. One day we could be talking about an obscure artefact that lives in an archive in one of our buildings, the next we could be on paddleboards, paddleboarding through The Menai Strait in Wales, or the next week, we could be on the back of mountain bikes going bikepacking. So it’s really varied, but if you like adventure, if you like history and heritage, it’s a podcast that packages all of that stuff into one.

But I think the thing that most people like about our podcast is it’s really immersive. And one of the things we try to do is to make the listener feel like they’re there. And especially during lockdown, we really became one of the only ports that people could go to those places, so we’ve come up with lots of techniques that really immerse people within the podcast, and often people say “I felt like I was there” or “I can’t wait to get my walking boots on because you inspired me to go on a walk.”

POD BIBLE: You mentioned it very briefly there, how was that transition into recording and creating things during the lockdown period?

SEAN: Not easy, because probably 99.9% of our podcasts are recorded on location. So that really put a spanner in the works for what we were doing. But it gave us opportunities to be creative, and it gave us opportunities to tell stories that we couldn’t or wouldn’t have told before. So one of my favourites was an episode called ‘Meet the Silver Surfers’. It was about these people in their 70s and 80s, who had been in these groups where they were really active and then suddenly, they were plunged into this world where they had to learn technology. Even with my mum, you know, she never really embraced her smartphone. And then I was getting text messages and the emojis and all of this stuff. And so it was how these kinds of people, these grandmothers embraced Facebook to be able to see their friends. But we ended up looking at a group of people in their 60s and 70s, who would go on these virtual tours around Cuba and the Mediterranean, and because they needed exercise, they all walk in front of their TVs. So that was that was a really nice story that we told.

I think the other thing that we did, that has now become a kind of staple of our podcast, is what I call the microphone distribution network. We started sending microphones out to get those interviews that normally we would rock up with our microphones and record in people’s homes or offices. And that’s really freed us up to take the podcast global you know, so we can have interviews in America, we can have interviews in Australia with experts that really help enhance the knowledge that we have within the National Trust. So the pandemic gave us some difficulties that we had to overcome, but it’s really enhanced what we do and really pushed forward the storytelling we’re able to do now.

POD BIBLE: The show is very much geared towards being outdoors and being in the properties in quite adventurous ways. Is that something that you’ve learned to do from being the producer, or were you already in that world?

SEAN: A bit of both really. Before I did the National Trust podcast, I have a podcast called The Codpast and one of the episodes I did was about a guy who had ADHD and to deal with it, he decided he was going to walk round the coast of New Zealand, I think it took him three years. And The Codpast was an interview based podcast, but that one I did in a very narrative style. And that kind of sparked my interest in doing narrative podcasts. And when I got to the National Trust, I decided to really utilise some of the skill set that I learned from working in television, because my background is television. Rather than using shotgun mics and things, we started hiring DPA mics, so the head-worn mics that Madonna would wear. And we put all of our presenters on radio mics. So if they wanted to climb a tree, they could. It really gave the presenters freedom to really explore rather than waiting for a Producer with a microphone to point it in their direction before they spoke.

And I think when I first started [The National Trust] were doing walks, literature, authors, homes, and gardens. And I started to think, how do I how do I turn a walk into a podcast? Do I just replace the studio with the outdoors? And I didn’t want to do that. So we worked out ways of how we could really embrace and engage the listener. So one of the things is we do a recce before we record, so we know exactly what’s coming in, where things are going to happen and where the best sounds are. And where a presenter will walk over the crest of the hill and, and see a beautiful view. And then we’ll add corresponding music that does that.

But we also have two scripts: we have a script for the Producers, and the script for the Presenters. And the Presenters kind of look at this and start to get hives because there’s massive blank spaces in their script, where there’s stuff that we know as Producers, but they don’t know. So we really want our Presenters to be experiencing things for the first time on microphone. And I always say, the best way to get a sense of a place is to listen to someone’s experience in that place, rather than them knowing everything and asking questions that they already know. So that’s how we did it.

And then it just expanded really. We started small, and then, you know, we’ve started doing these quite epic episodes every year. So last year, it was ‘A beginner’s guide to bike packing’, where we do a 36 mile journey – which is not far for bikepacking, but when you are carrying your recording kit, you’ve got the Producers, you’ve got the Presenters, you’ve got the Soundman, and we’re all on bikes, travelling along 30 degree inclines…. it’s quite a feat!

POD BIBLE: For the most part, you do standalone episodes. So how do you create a show that feels very unified, but each episode is quite unique at the same time?

SEAN: That’s an interesting question, because sometimes people do go “none of the episodes are the same, what you know, how would we create a synergy?” And I think, you know, all of the all of the episodes are about the National Trust. But what I like to do is look outside the Trust. So a lot of the time, ideas will come from an article that I’ve read and I think “okay, so is that something we do within the Trust is that something we can tap into?” So, our epic episode this year has been a beginner’s guide to paddle boarding. Paddleboarding is really big, you go down the middle aisle of your local supermarket, and you’ll see a blow up paddleboard. It’s something that’s really taken off, and it is something that is done at Trust places. But also, you know, one of the things we look at is carbon neutral transport to our places. Our places can be quite far away and the logical thing for a lot of people would be to go by car. But you could hike to our places, you could run to our places, you could cycle. And there’s lots of places we’ve got electric vehicles, but we thought, why not create an episode where we paddleboard to a National Trust property. So we still incorporated some of the art and history, but actually, we incorporated that adventure into the process of getting to the property.

I think everything we do is rooted in the National Trust. But we just find ways that we can utilise things that are quite zeitgeist, but also engaging new audiences. Because I think sometimes the National Trust does have an image of, you know, cream, teas and country homes. That is what we do, we do it really well. But there’s a lot more to the National Trust and the adventure side of what we do in the outdoorsy side of what the Trust does really appeals to a wider audience. So as often as we can we really try and tap into that.

POD BIBLE: Is there something that you still really want to do with the podcast, which you haven’t yet managed?

SEAN: I’ve talked about our epic episodes – we have done a wild swimming episode, we’ve done a backpacking episode, we’ve done a paddleboard in episode. So we’ve done land and sea, we haven’t done air yet. So that’s the next one. There is one episode that we’ve been trying to do for a while, which is called the jetpack paramedic. So there is a company called Gravity that makes jetpacks and there was a test with the Yorkshire air ambulance, where they use jetpacks for mountain rescue. I think they got to someone in 90 seconds, where if the mountain crew had to climb up, it would have taken them half an hour. And that was done on National Trust land. So that’s a story we’ve been trying to do for a while. That was scuppered by lockdown, we weren’t able to finish off doing that. But yeah, something to do with air travel, whether it’s jetpacks or paragliding or hang gliding. That’s an episode that I’d really like to do…

POD BIBLE: And what is the most interesting thing that you’ve learned from doing the podcast so far?

SEAN: I mean, I think that I’ve learned a lot about myself, to be honest, in doing the podcast. I think, an episode that I did last year for Black History Month was called ‘Black hiking’. I am someone who comes from London, and I went to Cornwall as a kid, but I’ve never really embraced the outdoors until I started working for the National Trust. And I remember one of my first recces that I did, I found myself halfway up a mountain in the Peak District. And it was completely silent. And that completely freaked me out. You know, being from London, if everything’s completely silent, something badly wrong has happened. So it was very interesting to try and get used to being in the outdoors. And I remember I met a guy and I said “this is really freaky. It’s too quiet” and he was saying, “Oh, no I couldn’t hack it in London because it’s too noisy.” And my love for the outdoors has grown with the National Trust and it’s probably reflected in a lot of the episodes that we do. But I think that’s probably the thing that I’ve learned the most.

But I think, from a production point of view is just how engaged in podcasts can be and how immersive, you can get with podcasts. And my boss at the National Trust had never listened to a podcast before I came. And I got her to listen to a podcast and she was like, “Oh, this is amazing. It’s this brave new world that I’ve never heard of before.” So I think it’s just the power of podcasting, and how you can really touch people with it, and really help people transport themselves to new places, if it’s done in the right way.

POD BIBLE: And it also goes the other way, the National Trust is such a big organisation, to have so many fantastic podcasts that you do, it really does just help to elevate podcasting, which we’re always going to be happy about!

SEAN: Yeah, and I think one of the great things about the podcast is we do tell stories that you potentially wouldn’t hear elsewhere in the Trust. We do dig deep and we do podcasts that are sometimes challenging, we do pick up on challenging topics. And I think it’s a great way just to show the breadth of the organisation because you could just see the National Trust as cream teas, and in country piles, but there’s so much breadth to it, The people that we work with are absolutely incredible, super passionate, super knowledgeable, and to be able to share all of that knowledge with the listeners, and just share some of these beautiful places with listeners is a really great thing to be able to do in a way that you can’t really do with video, and you can’t really do with copy.

I always say that podcasting is halfway between reading a book and watching a film: you give people just a little bit of a clue of what something looks like or sounds like, and then their imagination does the rest. So the places that people go to in our podcast are probably even more incredible than the actual places that we record them because their imagination’s doing all the work!

POD BIBLE: We do try to give people a ‘point of entry’ into podcasts, particularly when there’s a big back catalogue like yours. You’ve mentioned a couple of good episodes in there already. But is there one particular episode that you think people should absolutely go and listen to?

SEAN: I think ‘Operation Hillside’ is a really good episode, because it is the kind of thing that we like to do: really dig deep into the subject matter and tell stories that are really surprising about the National Trust. It’s one that I can’t tell you too much about, because that will be a big spoiler. But it’s a really interesting story. And it’s a story about something that you probably know, but in a very different way. And I think, you know, one of the producers that I worked with, went to some really deep depths to find archive material and things. And so it’s just a really rich listen to that’s probably a really great one for people to start with.

Listen to Sean talk about the National Trust podcast on the Pod Bible Podcast episode #114.

Listen to the National Trust Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and other popular podcast apps.

The post Sean Douglas: Senior Podcast Producer for the National Trust appeared first on POD BIBLE.

We caught up with Sophie to learn how she works with clients, uniting fans through content and why she loves working in audio.

What do you personally like about audio and podcasting?

For me, audio and podcasting are just so intimate and unique. The first-person communication style is different to any other media; the way the brain processes audio contributes to an incredibly strong relationship between audience and broadcaster. With podcasts, this is amplified even more. Think about the power of consuming podcast content: headphones, alone, directed straight into the listeners ears.

What I love the most is the unstuffy, unscripted, authentic nature of many different genres in podcasting. You genuinely feel like you are part of a two-way conversation with the host compared to watching or listening to other types of broadcast content. Being able to consume content using your senses and building an image of what that audio “looks like” using your own brain is hugely powerful.

I also think it’s a hugely flexible and accessible medium, and that’s really important. The flexibility of podcasting gives space for niche topics that wouldn’t have a platform elsewhere. It’s also much faster and cheaper to create audio compared to other types of media.

What do you consider when taking on a new project or client?

We always start with the client’s overarching communication or marketing objectives. Once we understand what a client is trying to achieve and why, we can get moving with our creative response. For example, if it’s a sport related project, are we targeting existing fans or engaging with new fans globally? What can we do that’s different? Audio solutions and podcasting are limitless tools and should build on existing content strategy – not just try and replicate what’s already available out there!

The bottom line is, we are unlocking the power of audio to engage more deeply with fans and reach new audiences, so clear strategy is super important for any project.

Then comes all of the elements that make up brilliant podcasts, from hosts and presenters to guests, audio branding, distribution, and marketing of the content. In many instances we are also working with integrating a commercial partner, and the Voiceworks team is made up of experts with plenty of commercial radio experience, which gives an invaluable steer on strategy.

As a company you seem very fan focused, but we’ve seen that sports fans can sometimes be very polarised when it comes to content, coverage, social issues. Is this something you have to keep in mind with your role?

Rights holders do face a challenge, there’s no doubt about it. How can they create an authentic and interesting product, while also creating content that avoids criticism of the team, manager, or players when (on occasion) it might be warranted?

The solution is thinking more broadly and using audio as a way of uniting fans by delivering content that isn’t already being served to them elsewhere. Podcasting is a freer form, so we can really shake up the game in that sense.

We look to cater for everyone, that’s a benefit of podcasting – limitless bandwidth for content, which means that no niche needs to remain unserved. We welcome all perspectives that are respectful to others, and of course is suitable for our brand and sponsors.

Both the audio industry and the sports industry have a big gender disparity, and yet podcasting is proven to serve audiences that have been undervalued in other media. Do you think audio is well placed to engage these audiences?

I really do believe that audio is a safe space to find “your tribe” – be that gender related, sport related or any other niche you may have. It’s an ocean of opportunity that is accessible to everyone and can go a long way in engaging underrepresented groups.

Podcasting is a great place to redress the imbalances we see elsewhere but there is definitely still a way to go. That being said, there are no commissioners to say yes or no to an idea, unlike other forms of broadcast media. This allows podcasters to be more daring and creative in their choice of topic, which means that podcasting can go a long way in connecting like-minded audiences across the world.

If you have access to a USB, mic, and internet you are free to experiment with podcasting – it really can be that easy. This gives the space for many people to try out their ideas as the entry levels are low in comparison, to say, making a film.

Podcasting also has much more parity across all genders. In terms of sport, what could have been just one sentence on a national sports radio station can become a whole podcast series delving deeper into, say women’s football, with a super engaged audience.

There are some interesting stats out there that show just how well-placed audio is to engage underrepresented audiences. The recent Sounds Profitable Creators Survey found that podcast creators are still overwhelmingly male; however, there is far less bias towards white men than in traditional media because of the lower barrier to entry. What’s really interesting is that the podcasting space is far more ethnically diverse than the population. The theory is that those who aren’t seeing/hearing themselves represented in popular culture are creating their own media and filling the void, which is testament to how inclusive and accessible the medium is.

What is something you haven’t tried with Voiceworks Sport yet but would like to?

We are all, obviously, huge sports fans here at Voiceworks Sports and live sport audio is a great opportunity for us. Beyond this, owning the audio rights to global events would be incredible.

We’ve done a lot of work on short form audio content delivered via smart speakers but want to really crack the code of how to improve discoverability and user experience via voice. There’s so much opportunity within audio and the market is constantly evolving, so we’re heading in the right direction with all the exciting future projects that lay ahead.

What is the most valuable lesson you have learned in your role?

That’s the golden question… I’d say think big, have a clear plan, and move fast.

When we launched Voiceworks Sport, the Sport Social Podcast Network wasn’t even in our roadmap, but we saw an opportunity which married perfectly with our knowledge of creating great audio, audio technology and how to integrate commercial partners into content. Many rights holders are now putting audio in the ‘must have’ instead of ‘nice to have’ box, which just goes to show how audio really is a secret weapon waiting to be unleashed, and that gives us the momentum to go even bigger and better.

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